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anticultistPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 11:32
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Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

OK I used to be seriously into this subject as a kid and growing up through my adolescant years. I studied this particular topic more than any other topic so far, in fact I have possibly read and watched every 'important' book and documentary UFOlogists would claim to be necessary to understand the topic.

Essentially what I learnt was that on the whole this subject is comprised of a few different kinds of people.

There are the researchers who on the most part are all hobbysists and interested people who have taken their research to a professional level where they make money talking about it, these people are generally not experts in any scientific field at all. They are typically dependant upon external scientists to the field to validate any claims they make and have no skillsets other than interviewing and compiling data into public presentations and books. They tend to be hardcore believers with little critical thinking abilities, and are easily duped into committing themselves to a story with little persuasion.

Then you have the so called experts of the field who tend to be more rational about the topic and would likely state there is something unusual about a specific matter, but never would they categorically put their credibility or professional position on the line by 100% advocation. These people are what might be called fence sitters, they want to believe in the subject and would love it to be true but out of common sense would prefer to sit back and observe and debate the topic. These people tend to be of a professional background and or technical and scientific background and stand to lose out on their income and reputation if they commit to logical fallacies.

Then you have the complete skeptics who would deny that any of the stories and subject are possible. These tend to be from all walks of life and not only governmental bodies, in fact a lot more of these people are either people who have no experience and are simply not going to entertain the possibility, or have some technical expertise or experience in an area that would give them a level of certainty on the subject.

When you look into the subject of UFOlogy you have to ascertain exactly who it is you are talking to, because while the subject is extremely interesting there are so many kooks and CT types in the first subset of people that it gets crazy trying to actually find an example that may be worth looking at with a scientific mind.

The main problem with UFOlogy is that on the whole there is an anti government movement and philosophy that is rife throught the whole field, there is a tendency to attribute all failure of the UFO topic to be proven real to a government cover up. This is pretty much the norm when it comes to believers and researchers in the field, they all tend to have some or a lot of CT claims in their presentations and books. It is for this reason that you will never truly get serious research into the topic because on the most part scientists just do not want to affiliate with kooks, cranks and paranoid schizos.

So rightly so the field has a stigma that is much like that of the Conspiracy world, and it is not because the subject is taboo or unwarranted of discussion, rather it is because the majority of it is actually nonsense made up by Conspiratorial thinkers and poor researchers.

This leads to the whole cult mentality we are all interested in, the sad thing is that the new age movement and eastern religious woo mentality is in symbiosis with the topic too. This is as much a problem as the Conspiritorial mindset because this brings the whole element of pseudoscience being taken and proclaimed as if scientific fact. This is another reason why real investigators and scientists shy away from the topic. This element of the subject is where it gets religious and cultlike, because you have the whole emotional woo element attached and peoples needs and beliefs are pandered to and stroked. This leads to things like heavens gate cult, scientology, desteni,and the people on louis therouxs weird weekends UFO episode: http://video.uk.msn.com/watch/video/ufos/12gdemk7v</p>

To investigate this subject will require you immerse yourself into truly bizarre belief systems, probably some of the most farfetched beliefs that there are on Earth, as well as highly conspiratorial claims, anti government mentalities, and religious pseudoscientific claims filled with new age woo and enlightenment shit.

Good luck

#1 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
MuertosPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 12:14
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Paid Disinformation Blogger

Level: 14
CS Original

UFOs are a huge topic. Obviously it attracts a lot of cranks.

I believe there is room for legitimate scientific study. There are some UFO sightings by reputable witnesses which can't be explained by conventional phenomena. Those should be studied in more depth. However, I think they're a tiny minority of reported sightings, and it's a very far jump, logically, from looking at a truly unexplained sighting and concluding that it must be a spacecraft from another planet.

You're right, there are some truly bizarre belief systems out there. The UFO world is full of CT'ers, New Agers and downright nuts. It's definitely a rabbit hole.

#2 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 12:20
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Dont forget the people who think that UFOs are interdimensional beings who are helping the government in a depopulation plan as seen in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NdPWWseJBc&feature=related

#3 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 12:36
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Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

I believe there is room for legitimate scientific study.

Me too. Obviously under the conditions that is to seriously attempt to discover new scientific principles from the phenomena being witnessed as opposed to only trying to validate it is aliens.

@Kaiser, that videos funny man, the dudes freaking out like fuck getting all emotional, then Art Bells team pull the signal for even more dramatic effect LOL... OK I am making that last part up but yeah funny phone call and shows the level of beleif and delusion that is involved in the topic. Its quite literally brimming with crazy folk.

#4 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 13:32
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

The Unexplained - UFO Cults

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkAID_Kez9w

Studies show that almost 20 percent of Americans believe in UFOs. And, as the much publicized Heaven's Gate incident pointed out, some of these people will go to extreme lengths in the name of their belief. UFO CULTS AND GROUPS traces the history of Heaven's Gate and compares it to another UFO group, the Unarius Academy, looking for insight into this growing phenomenon. Why do people join these groups, and why do some abandon all logic and reason in doing so? Interviews with former and current members of the groups offer a first-person view of what they are like, and point out the vast differences among them. Some are truly cults, which indoctrinate members and force them to embrace new beliefs and behaviors, while others are simply people joined together by a common interest. From the tragedy of Heaven's Gate to the remarkable number of people who belong to UFO groups of all descriptions, this is a thought-provoking look at a ""fringe"" belief that may not be as far from the mainstream as most think.

#5 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 15:22
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

There's a real good documentary about how the UFO craze began and how it was nothing but disinformation to hide experimental military aircraft.

#6 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 15:35
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

or Mengele Childhood Mutant spies.

#7 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 17, 2011 - 16:03
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Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

UFO's began historically pre modern aircraft, there are even news reports that discuss objects in the sky long before disinformation was a consideration, see the following as an example [one of many bizarre claims].

http://www.miqel.com/reading_library/archived_stories/1800s-unknown-crash.html</p>

And the term flying saucer originates with the sighting by a pilot called Kenneth Arnold in 1947, where he claimed the following:

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/03files2/1947_Kenneth_Arnold.html</p>

The idea that its an only modern thing and that its all governmental in origin seems lacking any merit, this is not to say that some of it isnt disinformation and some of it is not experimental aircraft, just not all of it is.

Here is a list of some examples of reports pre second world war:
http://www.miqel.com/reading_library/archived_stories/dubious_ufo_report_list.html</p>

And in fact UFO reports come from international sources which clearly eliminates the disinformation from a single source to hide their technology as a single explanation.

#8 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jul 18, 2011 - 18:00
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original

I find the UFO community I listen to on occasion to be very hilarious. It's interesting though because not all believe tinfoil hats work but others do. This UFO community has talked about reptilians but rarely associate David Ickes theories on it which makes me believe that David Icke's theory's on reptilians may have originated from UFO groups (more than likely but I don't know off hand).

UFO's which stands for unidentified flying object can in itself be perfectly legit topic to study. The problem with UFO groups is that you get the oddballs who claim that he or she was anal probed by Aliens, or that their impregnated with a hybrid alien child. These odd balls end up getting more media exposure, believed by gullible people, than the true skeptics that use the scientific method to arrive at their answers.

#9 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 18, 2011 - 18:53
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Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

With a lot of the abductee claimees I get the impression they are the kind of people who need to have some belief that they are important and special somehow. I spent a lot of time talking with UFO witnesses and abductees over the years and a lot of them have this notion that they are somehow meant to help the aliens change the planet or help change the human race somehow. They have some kind of belief they are special when you boil it all down to its basic root.

Its almost a bit like they have a need to feel needed and wanted, or have a narcissistic personality or belief that the universe is bending over backwards to please only them.

A lot of abductees will use the excuse 'I didnt ask for this'or 'I was not invited' or 'taken against my will' etc when confronted about their egotistical mannerism and self appointed expertise on the subject... but its interesting how many of them thrive off it when they get an audience who will listen to them, they seem to enjoy the fact their story makes them 'special' in UFO circles in very egotistical ways.

I am not saying I have any evidence to prove them wrong or their stories, but I am saying that their stories and personalities make me question their factual truth and general honesty.

And yeah I believe the reptilian thing was in UFO folklore for quite a while and Icke has assimilated it, or other people have evolved it and he has taken their stories and made them his own.

#10 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Vasper85Posted: Jul 19, 2011 - 00:10
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Level: 1
CS Original

I have a hard time believing that UFO's are anything but terrestrial in origin. I don't discount that people believe they've seen something, but it most likely has a rational earthly explanation. I based this off of Drake's equation which, depending on the value of the parameters used, the galaxy is either teeming with technologically advanced life (able to send and receive radio transmissions) or exactly 1(us). The trouble is there is no way to accurately peg the parameters all we know is the lower bounds.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation</p>

And it is most probable that the upper bounds are not nearly as "teeming" as Drake's best case scenario would lay out as evidenced by the Fermi-Hart paradox. The infamous "Where are they?"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox</p>

Several theories abound as to why this is. One is the Great Filter. That some constraint exists that make technological civilizations short-lived by default. Either by destroying themselves by weapons of war or simply outgrowing their energy source and suffering a subsequent population crash.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter</p>

I would tend to say why send ships at all? It is far more efficient to send out self-replicating satellites to explore and categorize a galaxy then to visit them directly using space craft. We are talking about aliens that have mastered at the very least intragalactic space travel so self replication technology should be within their grasp. Thus it is unlikely that first contact would involve live aliens and spaceships further supporting a terrestrial explanation for UFO's

#11 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 19, 2011 - 01:20
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Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

All valid points and I would also go for Earthly explanations for things even though some peoples stories sound incredibly extra terrestrial in origin when they tell you what they saw.

There are certainly variables to consider as well when discussing space faring civilisations, and these are the following:

Its possible that there are lifeforms out there that do not live and die as we do, therefore making them appear what we may call immortal, they may not breath, eat or even die of disease or old age [or at least live a very long time by our standards].
Its possible there are successful civilisations that have stepped outside the norm of our understandings of what is necessary to travel through space and have the anatomy and equipment to do so with ease.
Its possible that there are civilisations that have colonised space itself and do not require a specific planet to call home and can exist in many different environments we might call hostile.

All the above would make it much more advantageous for them to get about than it is for a life form like us.

Remember even in nature on Earth there are always expceptions to the rules.

#12 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Isa73Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 04:53
(-2)
 

Level: 0
In regard to the OP, I'm in a sub-category of fence sitters who believe in UFO's, have no qualm about it being known, and have a gripe with those disseminating disinfo for whatever reason.

I believe abductions may be true and at least part of UFO's have alien origins. Reason for the latter is there were reports by the US military of UFO's spotted over nuclear silo sites and sometimes messing with them (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/15/idUS166901+15-Sep-2010+PRN20100915).
There are also numerous records of UFO's following commercial flights at what's considered unsafe distance. I don't see why any military organization would goof around like that, supposing they have the technology,

Personally, I've had about a dozen sightings so far. The most recent ones have been recorded.
#13 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Sep 28, 2011 - 17:33
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original
why is it that Reuters has a disclaimer on that article?
#14 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Isa73Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 18:12
(-2)
 

Level: 0
As you've read, the disclaimer is pretty self-explanatory. I merely posted the link in case anyone would want to investigate further.
#15 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Sep 28, 2011 - 18:14
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
UFOs are fucking retarded, even worse than lizard people.
#16 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Isa73Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 18:22
(-4)
 

Level: 0
Do you mean UFO's have intercourses with mentally-impaired persons or they rate rather poorly at IQ tests?
#17 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Sep 28, 2011 - 18:35
(1)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
Shutup.
#18 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Sep 29, 2011 - 07:53
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original
I investigated further, and the only links you get when you search these people mentioned are the UFO sites. The issue is that this reputable news agency, rather than taking credit for the story decides to remove responsibility for it and then we have nothing else to substantiate this story except some people claiming to have seen something. This for good investigation does not make.
#19 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Isa73Posted: Sep 30, 2011 - 15:42
(-3)
 

Level: 0
Regarding Reuters, if the disclaimer is tantamount to a trash bin, they may as well not publish these items.

Back to the story, since it's supposed to have occurred on a military base, you're bond to be limited to alleged witness testimonies. Unless I'm mistaken your viewpoint is it virtually makes any sort of investigation impossible. Mine is to follow up with a study of these reports, look for discrepancies... and then decide what I make of it.
#20 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
KeppPosted: Sep 30, 2011 - 15:57
(1)
 

Level: 5
CS Original
Anecdotes aren't fucking evidence unless you're just looking to confirm your beliefs.
#21 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Sep 30, 2011 - 17:22
(2)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original
Quote from Isa73

Regarding Reuters, if the disclaimer is tantamount to a trash bin, they may as well not publish these items.

Back to the story, since it's supposed to have occurred on a military base, you're bond to be limited to alleged witness testimonies. Unless I'm mistaken your viewpoint is it virtually makes any sort of investigation impossible. Mine is to follow up with a study of these reports, look for discrepancies... and then decide what I make of it.



Actually, in conducting cursory research we must of course look at the reports which, while sensational, retain a remarkably small amount of evidence that they occurred beyond the "eye-witness testimony." The method you suggest is hardly scientific in its approach and works only in matters of law when all evidence is circumstantial (which, by the way, nearly always invalidates the evidence in and of itself). Look, this story is like if me and my two buddies go camping and we agree to say we saw something. You can look at our stories, they'll match up pretty well, and there will be no one to say otherwise. My method is to look for any sort of hard evidence that extends out beyond these informants. What hard evidence do we have to go on? I do research for a living, and I've learned pretty early on that one source is not enough to make any claim whatsoever. The disclaimer isn't enough to invalidate it completely, but it sure is enough to tell you that these kinds of stories are tenuous at best.
#22 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Sep 30, 2011 - 18:08
(1)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
Why is this person here?
#23 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Isa73Posted: Sep 30, 2011 - 18:18
(-4)
 

Level: 0
Actually, in conducting cursory research we must of course look at the reports which, while sensational, retain a remarkably small amount of evidence that they occurred beyond the "eye-witness testimony." The method you suggest is hardly scientific in its approach and works only in matters of law when all evidence is circumstantial (which, by the way, nearly always invalidates the evidence in and of itself). Look, this story is like if me and my two buddies go camping and we agree to say we saw something. You can look at our stories, they'll match up pretty well, and there will be no one to say otherwise. My method is to look for any sort of hard evidence that extends out beyond these informants. What hard evidence do we have to go on? I do research for a living, and I've learned pretty early on that one source is not enough to make any claim whatsoever. The disclaimer isn't enough to invalidate it completely, but it sure is enough to tell you that these kinds of stories are tenuous at best.


I didn't mean to imply testimonies were to be the end of it all. To keep your camping analogy, I'd look up the description, color, shape of the UFO you claimed to have seen and search for reports of similar sightings in the area around the same time. I'm totally with you on not giving too much credit to a single source unless hard evidence is present.

In this case, there are hard leads, if no evidence, in the form of a major dysfunction at a nuclear silo site. If the USAF confirms it, do they have a prosaic explanation for it? That's where I'd start.
#24 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Sep 30, 2011 - 18:41
(3)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
#25 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Wolf BirdPosted: Sep 30, 2011 - 21:43
(1)
 

I shoot you dead.

Level: 9
CS Original
^any post featuring an animated gif of Penn Jillette is automatically awesome.
#26 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]